0 ベース vs 1 ベース

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

1からスタートの人→VB（４以前）,COBOL　（Not　C経験）
２からスタートの人→C経験者。.NETな世界の人

かな（笑）
VBは.NETから０スタートで固定になったっぽいので（＾＾；
私は配列が０スタートっていうのを理解するのに時間がかかったシーラカンスです（＾－＾；

2007/07/27 12:52 | 片桐

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

逆にいえば「なぜ0から数えるのか」と問えませんか。
0から数えるのはコンピュータ指向であり、C言語指向だと思います。
一方、人間は日常的に、数は1から数えますから、1ベースの方が自然だと思います。
C言語およびその派生言語がもたらした悪しき慣習ということで。

2007/07/27 13:10 | シャノン

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

むかしむかしそのむかし

FOR I = 1 TO 10
　A(I) = ほにゃららー
NEXT

みたいなコードを何度も何度も何度も書いてたもんだから、
ループ変数は1から始めないと気持ちわりーんぢゃないでしょか。

2007/07/27 13:12 | επιστημη

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

あぁ、俺ぁ論点がズレてるや。
C系列の言語を使うなら0オリジンが望ましいです。
でも、1オリジンの言語がいけないわけじゃないです。

2007/07/27 13:15 | シャノン

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

皆さんが仰る通り、書いた人は昔の癖が抜けないのかな？
結局、私が言いたい事は「何故、その土地の慣習に合わせないの？」という事です。

2007/07/27 13:27 | 囚人

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

0起点は、ｎ回繰り返したと言う考え方。
１起点は、n回目の繰り返しと言う考え方。
です。
＃ループカウンタの場合のみ

ループ中にカウンタを利用する場合(エピさんのコード例)は、実装依存なので考え方には当てはまらない。

要は視点の問題ですよ。

2007/07/27 13:30 | とっちゃん

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

indexは0ベースの法が扱いやすいシチュエーションが多いと思いますね。

そもそもコンピュータ内の情報としては0を基点にしているのだから（すべての桁が0で埋まった２進数は0を表す）0を基点にしないと都合が悪い。
数学的にも0から始まらないと気持ち悪い…。

2007/07/27 13:34 | nagise

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

こういうのってイディオムだと思うんですよ。
10 と固定値で書いたから伝わりにくかったかもしれませんが、

for (int i = 0; i < count; i++)
for (int i = 0; i <= count - 1; i++)
for (int i = 1; i <= count; i++)

だと、一番最初のコード以外は一瞬思考しないといけないのは私だけでしょうか。

2007/07/27 13:42 | 囚人

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

さすがに真ん中の i <= count-1 は、考えちゃいますが
それ以外は両方とも使うので、思考が止まることはないなぁ...

単純なループカウンタとしては、おいらは０ベース派なので、
最初のほうがしっくりきますけどね。
＃n回繰り返したか？という確認のほうが好きｗ
でも、あと何回やる？という while( count-- ) のほうがもっと好きｗ

2007/07/27 13:57 | とっちゃん

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

「何故、その土地の慣習に合わせないの？」

となると、囚人さんに激しく同意♪

2007/07/27 14:01 | とりこびと

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

> 私が言いたい事は「何故、その土地の慣習に合わせないの？」という事です。

それを問うなら、土地の慣習に合わせるべきです。
しかし、

> 一番最初のコード以外は一瞬思考しないといけないのは私だけでしょうか。

それは慣れの問題です。
1から数えるのが慣習のチームに配属されたら、何度でも思考してください。

2007/07/27 14:09 | シャノン

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

>でも、あと何回やる？という while( count-- ) のほうがもっと好きｗ
なぬっｗ

>それは慣れの問題です。
>1から数えるのが慣習のチームに配属されたら、何度でも思考してください。

変な言い方をしたから誤解を招いたかもしれませんが、「土地の慣習」ってのは「言語特有」のものであって、0 から数えるとか 1 から数えるとかをチーム毎に変えるべきではないでしょう。
0 から数える事が基本の言語なら 0 ベースで考えるべきだし、1 から数える事が基本の言語なら 1 ベースで考えるべきですよね。
んで、慣れとかではなくて、それを混在するから一瞬考えてしまうわけです。

2007/07/27 14:17 | 囚人

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

> ループ中で i は使ってない（配列のインデックスなど）し、

この前提なら (ループカウンタをインデックスのように使わないなら) 私も 1 から開始します。インデックスとして使うなら 0 からになるか foreach になるでしょう。

ループカウンタを使わないループするパターンがほとんどないのであまり考えたことがなかったですが、言語どうこうより仕様の概念を優先することが多いです。

2007/07/27 14:27 | じゃんぬねっと

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

0ベースと1ベースの話を聞くと
イギリス人とアメリカ人が1Fで待ち合わせすると会えない、
という話を思い出す。

2007/07/27 14:29 | よね

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

> while( count-- ) のほうがもっと好きｗ

機械語いぢってた・いぢってるヒトには
LOOP:
....
DEC B # 1引いて
JR NZ, LOOP # non-0 ならもう一回
のイメージそのまんまだからかなー? ^^;

2007/07/27 14:30 | επιστημη

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

while( count-- ) をfor文で書いてあるのを見た時思考が完全に停止したことを思い出しました。

2007/07/27 14:44 | K5

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

i = 0 の(脳内)解釈として
・０から
・初期値が０
があるからだと思います。
脳内という点ではそれまでの経験言語も多少影響してると思います。
#そういえば.NET始めた当初、CollectionBaseだけが１ベースだったのでやりにくかった。。。

To句があるのに、From句やInit句が無いのが原因かも。

2007/07/27 14:47 | まどか

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

わたしの場合、２通りが混在しますね～
配列なんかのループのときはゼロだけど、例えば試行回数が１０回、ってときなんかは１から始めます。
for (i = 0; i < items.Count; i++);
for (i = 1; i <= tryCount; i++);
添え字として使用するループ変数でしたら使用言語（使用対象）に合わせるけど、添え字として使わない場合は１から始めたいなって思ってます。
Ｃ＃でエクセルを操作する時だと、添え字に使っても１からです。
＃それと++は後ろ派ですｗ

2007/07/27 15:02 | 通り＊

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

矩形配列のようなものがあったとして
int[] val = int[width * height];
と宣言されているとする。

for (int y=0; y<height; y++) {
for (int x=0; x<width; x++) {
val [y * width + x];
}
}

となるところ、1ベースだと
for (int y=1; y<=height; y++) {
for (int x=1; x<=width; x++) {
val [(y-1) * width + (x-1)];
}
}
となる。ループカウンタをループ内で２次利用する場合、0ベースの方が都合がよいと思われる。
ただし、ループカウンタをとくに利用しないのであれば、あまり大きな差異は出ないのではないか。

2007/07/27 15:13 | nagise

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

> 0 から数える事が基本の言語なら 0 ベースで考えるべきだし、1 から数える事が基本の言語なら 1 ベースで考えるべきですよね。

おおむね賛成！
一個だけ例外。

カウンタ変数を使って「～番目」って表示をする場合で、カウンタ変数を配列の添え字に使っていないのであれば、いちいち+1するのは面倒なので、1始まりにします。

2007/07/27 16:09 | 刈歩菜良

# [雑記]

for (int i = 0; i < count; i++) for (int i = 0; i <= count - 1; i++) for (int i = 1; i <= count; i++) だと、一番最初のコード以外は一瞬思考しないといけないのは私だけでしょうか。 0 ベース vs 1 ベースループをn回目とm回目で分割することを考えてみ

2007/07/27 16:12 | 低学歴無能俸給生活者の数学コンプレックス払拭日記

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

>機械語いぢってた
この要素は少なからずあるはずｗ

なにせ、小学生時代(と言っても高学年だけどｗ)に受けた影響だから、ないなんてことは絶対にない！ｗ

なので、おいら的には、「何回やった？」とか、「あと何回やるか？」と言うほうが考え方としてはしっくりくるのね。
＃都合がいいのは、C ではどちらでも表現可能と言うことｗ

なので、インデックスとして使う場合(nagiseさんの例)以外では
必ずどっちか。

どっちにするかは、誰がソースを見るか次第だなぁｗ
なぜかって？
whlie( count-- ){...}
をみて思考がそこで止まっちゃう人がいるからｗｗ

2007/07/27 16:17 | とっちゃん

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

機械語だとゼロジャンプかノンゼロジャンプを多用するからなぁ。
差分とってTESTで結果確認してジャンプするより、カウントダウンしてゼロでジャンプのほうが楽なのはわかる。
しかし…高級言語に持ち込むのはどうなんだろう？ｗ

2007/07/27 16:32 | nagise

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

＞しかし…高級言語に持ち込むのはどうなんだろう？ｗ
いや、高級言語に持ち込んでるんではなくて、思考をコード的に表現した結果が
「たまたま」while( count-- ) と言うだけです。
＃実装として、 while にしてるとか、> 0 や != 0 をつけてないとかはありますけどｗ
＃そこは本筋ではありません。

要するにおいらの基本思想が「残りどんだけ？」なわけです。
なので、単純なカウンタループであれば、カウントダウンのほうが好き。

要するに根がものぐさなおいらとしては、遊んでいたいわけですｗ
なので、仕事が回ってきたら、片付けるものをリストアップして残りこんだけー！
としたいわけですｗ
なので、一番しっくりする表現が count-- != 0 となる(count-- > 0 でもよい)。

ノルマが幾つでいくつこなしたぜ！ってのはおいらの思考的には好みじゃねーわけですｗ

2007/07/27 19:15 | とっちゃん

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

こんな記事にコメントなんてつかんだろーと思ってたら、どえらいコメント数。

while( count-- )
↑結構分かりやすいなぁ～と思いました。アリですね。

ところで、機械語っておいしいのかな？ｗ

2007/07/27 19:49 | 囚人

# re: 0 ベース vs 1 ベース

> 要するにおいらの基本思想が「残りどんだけ？」なわけです。
なるほど。しかし、カウントダウン方式だと0ベースだと微妙に記述しにくいのが嫌らしいところですね。
そっちだと1ベースの方が相性いいのかしらん？

最近のJavaでは(JavaSE5.0以降)いわゆるfor-each構文がサポートされまして、GoFデザインパターンのIteratorパターンを用いて
for (Object o : iterator) {
// 実際の処理
}
という書き方をするので、あえてループカウンタが必要な場合以外はIteratorが返す限り～というOOPな世界へ。
ループカウンタが必要になるのは全for文中、1割にも満たない気がします。私の脳みそは最近そういうロジックにｗ

2007/07/27 21:05 | nagise

# 0 ベースなんだけど……

0 ベースなんだけど……

2007/07/30 15:49 | やまだの仮想庭園

# [画像処理](x1,y1,x2,y2) vs (x,y,width,height)

[画像処理](x1,y1,x2,y2) vs (x,y,width,height)

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For using the resources (computer power) they are paid a certain amount of virtual money.
The more powerful the computer, the more "mining" there is.

To exchange the cryptocurrency for real money you can use the virtual services, exchangers such as Qiwi.
ATM exchangers have recently begun to work in Moscow.
What cryptocurrencies exist?
There are thousands of them. Yes, it all started with bitcoin, which appeared in 2009.

The boom in the popularity of digital coins began three or four
years later. And now there are about 300 kinds of cryptocurrencies traded on the largest
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Anyone advanced in technology, even a schoolboy, can write their own cryptocurrency.
And this is not a metaphor: tech-savvy schoolchildren really create their own cryptocurrencies.

Cryptocurrencies are written in much the same way that programs are
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The "ready-made" digital coin needs to be put
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The only issue of digital money is "mining" by users who run applications.

For using the resources (computer power) they are paid a certain amount of virtual money.
The more powerful the computer, the more "mining" there is.

To exchange the cryptocurrency for real money you can use the virtual services, exchangers such as Qiwi.
ATM exchangers have recently begun to work in Moscow.
What cryptocurrencies exist?
There are thousands of them. Yes, it all started with bitcoin, which appeared in 2009.

The boom in the popularity of digital coins began three or four
years later. And now there are about 300 kinds of cryptocurrencies traded on the largest
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Anyone advanced in technology, even a schoolboy, can write their own cryptocurrency.
And this is not a metaphor: tech-savvy schoolchildren really create their own cryptocurrencies.

Cryptocurrencies are written in much the same way that programs are
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The "ready-made" digital coin needs to be put
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More information on the site: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbntimes.com%2Ffinancial%2Fa-national-digital-currency-for-the-us&gl=CA .

Cryptocurrency is digital money. They differ from conventional ones in two main ways.

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digital space, stored in an electronic wallet.
Cryptocurrency has no Central Bank-type regulator.
The only issue of digital money is "mining" by users who run applications.

For using the resources (computer power) they are paid a certain amount of virtual money.
The more powerful the computer, the more "mining" there is.

To exchange the cryptocurrency for real money you can use the virtual services, exchangers such as Qiwi.
ATM exchangers have recently begun to work in Moscow.
What cryptocurrencies exist?
There are thousands of them. Yes, it all started with bitcoin, which appeared in 2009.

The boom in the popularity of digital coins began three or four
years later. And now there are about 300 kinds of cryptocurrencies traded on the largest
exchange.
Anyone advanced in technology, even a schoolboy, can write their own cryptocurrency.
And this is not a metaphor: tech-savvy schoolchildren really create their own cryptocurrencies.

Cryptocurrencies are written in much the same way that programs are
written.
The "ready-made" digital coin needs to be put
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but dozens: just like it is more profitable for a farmer to supply milk to
ten stores instead of just one shop. And the more people buy your cryptocurrency - the
higher its rate will go up.
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