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ASP.NET - 状態管理のジレンマ(2)

前回のつづき

アプリケーションコードの「何番目のテキストボックス」という処理は明らかに拙い。通常はプライマリキーとなるものも同時にビュー状態に持たせ、そのプライマリキーを セッション状態と突合せるだろう。この対処によって、データDをデータC'に更新してしまう事は回避できる。しかし、データAはデータA''に更新される。 これでよいのだろうか?

場合によってはこの挙動でも問題ないだろう。ユーザーは最終的にはデータAをデータA''にしたいと考えているのだから。

しかし、そのような判断は一体どうやるのだろうか?しかも、他のデータが、「データA -> データA '-> データA''」といった遷移を前提とした処理をしていないのだろうか?

このような事に頭を悩ませるとキリがないので、「クライアントは、サーバーが返した最新のビュー状態で POST する」という事を大前提としてシステムを作りあげる。このような前提を持ちたいが為によく用いられる手法が「ブラウザの戻るを禁止する」事だ。

これで万事解決…なわけがない。

「ブラウザの戻るを禁止する」にはツールバーを消す、キャッシュを残させない等、手法は幾つかある。確かに効果的あり、過去のビュー状態で POST する確率を減らす事が出来るので、努力する価値はあると言える。しかし、あくまで確率を減らしているだけに過ぎない。

Web アプリケーション構築で絶対にしてはいけない事は、「クライアント側処理への絶対の信頼」だ。

Javascript によるクライアント検証、Cookie の存在、環境変数、ありとあらゆるクライアント処理を信頼してはいけない。「ビュー状態は必ず最新である」という事も信頼してはいけない事はこれまでの話で分かる。

しかし、ビュー状態で信頼してよい事柄もある。それは「改竄されていない」という事だ。

ビュー状態の機密性はないに等しい。暗号化する事も可能だが、どうせクライアントに丸々渡してしまう物にパフォーマンスを落としてまで暗号化する意味があるかどうかは疑問だ。そもそも機密性が必要なデータをビュー状態に保存してはいけない。

それに対して、ビュー状態の正当性はフレームワークによって保障されている。 厳密には、改竄される可能性はあるが、改竄されたとしてもフレームワークが弾いてしまう。よって、我々はビュー状態が正当である事を前提としてシステムを構築できる権利がある。

ビュー状態が正当である事を前提として、ビュー状態が最新である事を保障したい。どうすればよいのか?

つづく。

投稿日時 : 2006年11月8日 0:23

フィードバック

# ASP.NET - 状態管理のジレンマ(3)

ASP.NET - 状態管理のジレンマ(3)
2006/11/12 18:04 | 囚人のジレンマな日々

# ASP.NET - 状態管理のジレンマ(3)

ASP.NET - 状態管理のジレンマ(3)
2006/11/12 20:06 | 囚人のジレンマな日々

# smwrEoroAedB

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# гравий оптом

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# ruxsps

г?“ г?? There are some great rapids in there and at the level we had a lot of fun! I've been wanting to run that section for years! There was light rain all day Sunday and I expect that local levels are working their way back up again. The conwy hadn't risen significantly whilst we were on it. I reckon that the best person to ask what the best river is is chris sladden who's been pretty much evrywhere!! http://www.brusselaso.be/index.php/forum/specialiteiten/28521-2016-25-0-5-20-16-clash-royale-apk-cheats#28524
I wear glasses, all the time, I couldnt do without them. It's only caused one swim, when I thought a rock was the main flow, dont ask me how I just did. I'm one of those that has my eyes open when upside down, it helps me a bit I'd feel disorientated if they were closed, but that's just me. Rory, http://www.contraloriabga.gov.co/contralores_escolares/site/index.php/forum/sugerencias/6203-cheats-25-05-2016-sniper-swat-fps-cheats-for-android-generate-gold-android-ios#6202
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dfg45gdfgdf3454
I'm planning to go out November - August and will probably have to stay in one place for a while until I get enough money to travel about more. I seem to be the opposite of most people - I always keep my eyes shut and can't imagine opening them, it hurts underwater....
2016/05/29 14:57 | gabrielpom

# d2huq8

д?? Rory, Started wearing disposable lenses, now my palyboating moves include the surfing blind where rubbing the lenses back onto the eyeballs move (tricky to do, cr*p to watch), the roll up and find the lens before you trashed again (Hurley favourite) and other classics. http://www.gimc.ru/content/selkirk-rex-kitten-for-sale-10
Water?....What bloody Water! When in July? We're heading over to the French Alps at the end of July....could be tempted to visit Austria? http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%B3-siamese-kitten-sale-10
е ? г?? I've got a few friends who have got EZ's and they seem to be able to run the same grade but have a wee bit more play. See you tomorrow http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%8Bphotoj%E2%9C%92ournalism%E2%99%8C-burmese-kitten-rehoming
I was in my final year at Newcastle when they tried to bring in these sort of criteria. So I fully appreciate the problems you have here. Rob http://www.gimc.ru/content/ragdoll-kitten-for-sale-under-50
We had a quick blast down the Loop on Sunday- having already decided that the Upper was best left to Mark, Chris & Co. Mike http://www.gimc.ru/content/colorpoint-shorthair-cat-for-giveaway
BCU - River Dart Access г?? г?° http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%97%99-colorpoint-shorthair-sal%E2%97%95e
The main problem is you don't want to go down the right hand channel in a 16 foot open canoe (as I tried to :o ) http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%C2%AE-british-shorthair-kittens-sale


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Rob
2016/06/05 16:25 | adriancri

# qaffd0

е ? е®? Headed over too the Upper Tavy- about 1pm on Sunday to find it at a perfect level- all the rocks covered- but still not quite into the trees- This is probably better than the last link I put up here and the one I meant to use. http://breathingspaceyogastudio.ca/node/801
More Kayakers than boardies, no windies and loads of space. Erm...I'm not sure Jerry...this is the one near Llanidloes. http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%96%A9%E2%96%AA-abyssinian-kitten-sale-under-50
г?¦ г?? Where are you thinking of going, I am based in Halifax, so it is not too far for me either. http://www.gimc.ru/content/scottish-fold-to-good-home
must be better than specs. Then I guess Craig, you won't want to know that we're now up to 15 kills....seems that the war is still on. http://www.gimc.ru/content/norwegian-forest-kitten-for-free
Never say never Jerry. At the mo a few regulars aren't using it but there's no reason to suppose it's down and out. Perhaps this is currently a Uni holiday(???)...they always tended to be dry periods of activity. Plym below Shaugh bridge...fast grade 4 for the first few hundred yards until just around the first bend you see below the bridge...quite a wakeup! But then eases dramatically in gradient and grade, good fun, no nasties. http://www.gimc.ru/content/exotic-cat-for-giveaway-0
Perhaps the river leader award would take the ideas of coaching on moving water (ie. L3K skills) but leading paddlers who already have good basic skills, ie. 3* ? Mick д?‘ г?“ http://breathingspaceyogastudio.ca/node/750
Fiona http://www.gimc.ru/content/ragamuffin-kittens-to-give-away-0


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http://www.gimc.ru/content/american-shorthair-kittens-to-good-home-0
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%A6%C2%AF%C2%AF%E2%99%A6-american-shorthair-kittens-sale-20
http://www.gimc.ru/content/american-shorthair-to-good-home
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%9D%B1%E2%9E%A4-manx-sale-under-100
http://www.gimc.ru/content/american-wirehair-kittens-to-adopt
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%97%BC-ragdoll-cat-sale-30
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%96%B7music%E2%96%B7-ragamuffin-good-home
http://www.gimc.ru/content/birman-kittens-to-give-away
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%97%A4%C2%AFbully%C2%AF-korat-cat-give-away
http://breathingspaceyogastudio.ca/node/629
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%B9%E2%99%B9-siamese-cat-sale
http://breathingspaceyogastudio.ca/node/1151
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%92-ragamuffin-cat-good-home
http://breathingspaceyogastudio.ca/node/526
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%97%B3%C2%AF%C2%AF%E2%97%B3-colorpoint-shorthair-cat-giveaway
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%98%82%E2%98%83-abyssinian-kittens-sale-30
http://breathingspaceyogastudio.ca/node/1464
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%B2%E2%99%B3-singapura-adoption-%E2%96%A2
http://www.gimc.ru/content/bengal-to-give-away-0
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%AB-siamese-kittens-sale-under-50
http://tribebuilder.org/groups/%E2%99%8D-sphynx-sa%E2%97%B5le-20
http://www.gimc.ru/content/korat-cat-to-adopt
http://breathingspaceyogastudio.ca/node/742

Go to the main 'message board' page (1st one). Log in, then on the top left there's a link to 'my control centre'...click that. Then, on the the new page, click 'edit profile'. Fill in all the relevant sections and remember to save the changes before you leave the page!
2016/06/05 19:14 | iovan000

# fk3hvb

г?? г?? :evil http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/393991
Yes thats me!! http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/394576
е ? г?« Victor C, who uses the Lower Tavy for Novices, reckoned it was running about 10' above normal/high and was unrecognisable Edited by: Craig Addison at: 2/26/02 11:54:17 pm http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/394473
Chas, Steve...you need to log in and go to your 'CONTROL CENTRE' (makes you think of Tracey Island or Defcon 1). http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/393260
Did you get my message? http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/393327
Rory г?? http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/395154
I'll shut up now.... ;-) Btw the level was dropping as we paddled it- it'll need more http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/395128


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Mick I am doing a coaching processes course in April, can anyone who has been on one give me some insight of what's involved, I've had various reports ranging from dull to pass me a pillow please I'm nodding off!
2016/06/06 22:30 | liviuboss

# uckvz2

г?­ е ? I think it is the coaches job to coach for the student and their choice of craft, not to dictate the choice of craft for the student? Whether this is a long or short boat - teach the right techniques appropriate to the boat? lower dart, angled on one side and stepped on the other. Can be shot either http://www.q1buckpole.com/node/27233
Steve, Then click "edit my profile" http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/403298
г?« е№ё Remember the last time Pete had boats stolen? He gave the guy who found them a brand new boat as a reward (Disco I think?) http://www.q1buckpole.com/node/27675
Come on don't be shy :rollin http://www.q1buckpole.com/node/27776
One slight downer was my paddling companion - Julian - lost his paddles at the confluence with the Tees. They were last seen bobbing along quite happily towards Worlton Lido and I am sure beyond. http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/413137
PUT-INS/ TAKEOUTS: Put in at the Bridge over the beck. Parking on a small side road gr337913, take out at the bridge below the falls next to the phone box 338909. Anybody have any photos of these rivers? Anything for the magazine would be appreciated as we have nothing at present. ж?° г?? http://www.spaziovitaniguarda.it/?q=node/394502
Paddled Shepperton Sunday morning. Just two of us. 8 gates and a huge bouncy stopper. Great fun, but would have preferred to be on the rivers. Cheers http://www.q1buckpole.com/node/28744


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F.S Wavesport EZ
2016/06/06 22:40 | CIOARA

# bwjl9s

ж?° BTW can you see Kimmeridge Bay from the top of Corfe Castle ???. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2141669
This Dulas, Jerry? http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2143402
г?? г?¦ Hammering down in S Wales at present and more forecast. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2142326
I think someone asked this a while ago, but I'm gonna do it anyway! As some of you may know I'm trying to get through my assessor status stuff and IT'S BLOODY IMPOSSIBLE!!! >: You'll often see people paddling with glasses. Guess it works for them or they wouldn't do it. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2143491
Undoubtedly there is plenty of other stuff hidden among the Carpathian forests, but what I saw was treestrewn spate stuff (in the Slovak Tatras) or further west, grim industrial areas with trees stripped by acid rain...seems the Czech Republic was a bit of an environmental horror back in it's Commie days. Do you ever teach in the pool? Just out of interest if you did what skills would you concentrate on? Rolling, handrolling, cartwheels. What about support strokes, boat control turning etc? http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2142242
Will. anyone else? or maybe it's just my lack of skill! г?? г?« http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2141447
It could only be that Big Friendly Ox - Robin?! http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2142196


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http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2142153
http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2141946
http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2143321

29 Dagger Super Ego Red Ex-Demo Dart Shop
2016/06/12 16:48 | cata84a

# mhfww9

г?? г?? I know people who paddle with contacts. Yes, they lose them occasionally. Now if can promise me conditions like that every w/e- we'd make the trip down there more often- can't believe we haven't discovered Kimmeridge before!! http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2144554
There is always the Exe...but I don't recommend this right now...yesterday it was flooding over half of Devon, meaning that upstream will consist of super-fast flat sections walled in by trees, enlivened by the odd enormous murderous weir. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2144089
г?? Mark R Cheers guys http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2144696
We did a low water run on the upper Dart yesterday, and stayed over at the Country Park. Second time lucky? http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2144779
I personally don't need correction for my eyes - my head is a different matter :eek http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2143774
Davef г?? г?№ http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2145797
Rory http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2144470


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Cheers We ended up on the Lower Tavy (Tavistock down) - having decided against Dartmeet. Checked out the upper Tavy but running well up in the trees. The Lower Tavy is a good alternative when everything is running that high - a few trees down, watch for one river left a few KM above the weir (on a right hand bend). No real hazards just a rollercoaster wave train.
2016/06/12 18:06 | danielpop

# re75zz

г?« г?® |I ts on the Derwent at Milford just upstream of the A6 roadbridge, Milfords between Belper and Duffield. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2209416
17% makes a BIIIIIIG difference when comparing boats from the spec sheets alone. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2208859
г?? Great Fun Mark- HOG ROAST AVAILABLE http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2209936
(Hope that photo worked!) http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2209183
Insane ramblings due to excess water http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2208892
Mick г?¦ http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2208812
Mick http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2209523


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You can get a good idea of wind speed and direction by looking at isobars. Imagine yourself looking along an isobar. There will always be lower pressure to one side of you and higher pressure to the other. In the northern hemisphere, if the low is to your left the wind blows almost straight ahead - in fact it's a few degrees to the left, i.e. slightly into the low pressure area.
2016/06/15 15:46 | Maniak7

# q6rsvf

г?“ г?® A big can of worms could be opened up here, the problem arises when minors (U18'S) are involved in club/uni organised trips, when there is an enhanced duty of care placed upon the shoulders of the organisers. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211410
Micheal, did you cycle up the Tilt out the top end and then take in the huge downhill (12mile?) cruise down the next valley? A wicked ride. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211475
г?? г?? roo - I take your point about the pool - and do most of my teaching there. Wrongly or rightly I was told by my course provider that pool teaching "doesn't really count". Generally the pool skills I have taught are rolling (paddle&hand) forward/backward paddling and some support strokes. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2210676
Cheers, http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2210187
It gives some idea what you may expect. But the level changes quickly. ok will do. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211636
Mick д?? http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211576
"Dangerous Sports" are indeed suffering from legislation. Latest problems include: Rob http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2210443


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http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2210371

I'd imagine a xmas bonus (bottle of whiskey) for example wouldn't be badly placed...... How was the Dart?....not that I'm jealous, or wanting to paddle it or anything ;)
2016/06/15 16:55 | neamtu75

# iiwusm

г?? г?« By the way...he's looking for keen, fairly able paddlers to paddle with up there. He's sick of these solo missions! In particular, anybody free on Friday afternoons would be a Godsend. If that's you, post a name/ contact here and I'll pass it on to him (someone else is using his laptop at present). http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211754
Andy http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2210200
ж?‡ Just about every variation on this will be recommended by someone, somewhere. Guided river tours catering for all levels of ability http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2210586
Sometimes I close them just as a wave hits or I power-flip as it can really sting but generally open my eyes underwater as it can help me orientate (when it's not an instant roll) and see which side is lightest, i.e. up. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211413
It was a great trip at this level with great boofing rocks. All the rapids were just that bit harder/faster. If you ever get a chance to run the lower section on 15+ (I believe the release was 15.5 with the tributries running as well) then do it. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211500
As far as forecasting Kimmeridge is concerned, as I'm five miles from the bay I cheat and use the Southbourne Surf cam which covers exactly where I lived before (before the camera, when folk used to call me up for a Southbourne surf synopsis, I always looked on Ceefax rather than walk 300 yards to see). г?° г?? http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2211571
In the same way, Level 2 Coach leads to Level 3 ?? Yep -forecast looking good- unfortunately we've got to be home for Saturday night- so looks like a paddle on Sunday- http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2210622


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Good luck on the Dart...have fun...and let us know how it goes (I'm dying to paddle it but there's no tickets left for this year!) If everything is too high, a couple of highly recommended runs after you've done the Dart Loop...
2016/06/15 17:32 | krystoff10

# ym3qcj

г?? г?° 'kayak' is the one I meant I dont know if he's ever writen a guide book - I wasnt saying that it was a welsh book - just that loads of welsh paddlers have got the book because its brilliant Go to the main 'message board' page (1st one). Log in, then on the top left there's a link to 'my control centre'...click that. Then, on the the new page, click 'edit profile'. Fill in all the relevant sections and remember to save the changes before you leave the page! http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2223952
See ya, http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2226739
г?? г?® Would you believe it...Conway running on Sunday (in fact stonkin!) but dry on Saturday.....guess what day I had free? It was productive though, bumped into a group from preston we may meet up with for a paddle. A few people there were considering whether it was worth getting wet for the level that we spoke to. http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2221628
Have you tried contacting your RCO? I think for your area it is Ian Scott, but check with BCU. See: http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2226430
This means a gallon of Bud is almost 17% less than a gallon of Theakstons which is probably a good thing. cheers http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2226596
The Ribble! г?? г?° http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2226580
TIME NEEDED: 30mins http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2224949


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Hi TOm! sean
2016/06/16 2:05 | Andy_Boss

# w92g1t

е№ё г?? Paul was behind Nate...but approximately a foot to the left. He hit the pillow forming in front of the mushroom rock, off center, and was shoved left. He then pitoned onto a rock between the roostertail and the mushroom rock. His forward momentum was stopped from the piton and water loaded on the stern of his Micro 240 and rear endered him into the sieve stern first, cockpit facing upstream. He pulled his skirt to swim, and was then slammed by the force of the water head first into the sieve, his boat was then held on top of him by the water. By the way like the new photo can almost see what you look like now....not sure if that's a good thing though? :lol http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2226513
anyone done 2 bridges section on the ribble? sounds v good, Mick http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2226288
г?¦ г?­ Oh thank god!... I thought I was the only sad git who started to get excited when someone mentions rain! http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2220194
I'm curently doing my A Level PE coursework (before anyone starts, IT IS A PROPER SUBJECT!) The subject is a player profile and mine is of a paddler. Anyone know if anything like this has been done before, perhaps in CODE or something that I could copy...er..I mean research into to supliment my project? http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2223961
Mick...a Dart Virgin :) http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2223892
Tom Hodgkin е ? http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2223235
I find the newsgroup MUCH easier to read Another hugely worthwhile contribution to be treasured... http://ywp.nanowrimo.org/node/2220568


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hf
2016/06/16 2:55 | chitzan37

# w0mse1

ж?‡ г?? Pattack http://cistools.net/node/2721
Mick Cheers http://cistools.net/node/2662
г?? Cheers http://cistools.net/node/3367
How about adding profiles ??? But, YOU built the site and YOU created the little beasties!!!!!!!! http://cistools.net/node/3326
Got lift on Sunday n went n rid the Upper Irfon, goin good. One car didnt make it, got stuck in floods in Hereford wouldya believe. CONTRIBUTED BY: Simon Wiles http://cistools.net/node/3309
You have been told. е?? г?? http://cistools.net/node/3058
Got off the phone this afternoon, the word is that the Conwy was paddled today (approx. 4 on the gauge...but that was more of a guess I think). http://cistools.net/node/3128


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The main problem is you don't want to go down the right hand channel in a 16 foot open canoe (as I tried to :o ) I think it is the coaches job to coach for the student and their choice of craft, not to dictate the choice of craft for the student? Whether this is a long or short boat - teach the right techniques appropriate to the boat?
2016/06/24 13:43 | koditza

# 59myih

д?? г?? Jerry, Any chance of posting some of that water up to me? ;) http://www.nettrader.ua/content/71831
www.guidebook.free-online.../dulas.htm Anyone want to part-exchange paddling kit for a chess set? ;-) http://www.nettrader.ua/content/72531
г?? е®? Will, http://www.nettrader.ua/content/69868
Rory, http://www.nettrader.ua/content/69975
Underwater vision It's also a small place itself. http://www.nettrader.ua/content/69872
Mick г?° http://www.nettrader.ua/content/71118
The hidden gem of mid Wales, a class 4+ gorge run in low water but a real beaut! Its in Chris S. guidebook. A couple of portages but will write it up for the guidebook Mark & I promise not to take as long as the Grwyne write up!! Jerry, if you see us on the ferry.... RUN! or you'll be sucked dry of all your information, advice and tips from the naive, fresh faced (and not so fresh faced) Alpine Virgins! We'll leave you as a quivering wreck :lol http://www.nettrader.ua/content/71025


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God I'm getting excited,Its been hissing down all day in Coventry and the weather maps are predicting more of it in Wales, I might have to throw a sickie next week if it continues!
2016/07/05 5:06 | man3x

# kj2keb

г?? е ? Mick https://www.civiltech.hu/node/5979
Non paddling topic Edited by: DartFolks at: 2/7/02 10:47:51 pm https://www.civiltech.hu/node/5779
г?? I've been very pleased with it river running/ surfing and having seen quite a few at HPP - I know the potentials there for playboating- it's obviously the pilot that stops the moves happening in my boat!! https://www.civiltech.hu/node/6013
So, to start off the thread - I'm gonna put up the Ogwen as a contender for the top UK river! I'd be very interested to hear from other folk as to their top river (or top 3?) and why? Mark, There is a really useful number for people that stay up listening to the shipping forecast, I think they call it the Samaritans or something, you should give them a ring !!. https://www.metakids.nl/node/12355
You need to link to www.guidebook.free-online...onchas.jpg Austrian Accomodation https://www.metakids.nl/node/11848
I can't speak for Mark - he's been mosteverywhere - but I must admit being a teacher does have advantages when it comes to paddling - or for that matter any daft pursuit that demands time and the will to travel. My sole motivation for becoming a teacher meant I got to have a few years at Bangor. Academic pursuits were a definite second when it came to the huge playground just down the road! I'm currently plotting my early retirement so I can go on the 'Old Farts' world tour. Can't wait!! roo г?­ г?? https://www.metakids.nl/node/11789
Excellent trip- I'd forgotten what fun this river was!! Nealey's chapter on flood level paddling has been particularly relevant of late. Found myself reading it again last week. https://www.civiltech.hu/node/6680


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See ya, So the 212 has 182l of volume. Not a stupidly low volume but the size of the boat might be a problem if you're 6 foot!
2016/07/06 3:37 | maryo

# c3kat7

е®? г?® Steve B. https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7549
Of the boats you've listed, the Inazone's definitely the best bet. The Glide is a very trippy design - the rails are super sharp, and it's long and slicey enough for nose pins to be a potential problem. It rewards you if you're on form, but that's probably not the type of boat you're looking for as a river runner. The Sub-7's a great boat (I've got one) but it's not really a grade IV/V river runner - it's very tight on the feet, you probably can't fit in with shoes, which are essential if you're paddling with other people, it's pretty tail-happy if you've got splits in the back etc. Great playboat, perfect for easier rivers, but not the boat I'd choose for anything which may have consequences. The Quadro's only really worth looking at if you can get a good price - it's a great river runner, but the play performance isn't too good. The hull's not very loose, the rails aren't really there and there's a very twitchy feeling when you're side surfing. On the other hand, the new Xeno might be worth a look (check out system X's website). See u at the Dart on Saturday, Dave...I assume you're coming over with Chris? https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7547
г?“ ж?‡ Chas https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7658
Hi there, So there's an idea for one of Mark's surveys - do you roll with eyes open or closed? https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7042
I seem to be the opposite of most people - I always keep my eyes shut and can't imagine opening them, it hurts underwater.... its red. with all the usuall fittings https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7761
OK, I've got one. Photo to follow. г?¦ https://www.civiltech.hu/node/5586
Will. 15? whats it normally on 12 I think (?) https://www.metakids.nl/node/12426


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Ribble...
2016/07/06 4:36 | Lunetistu

# 8kz1r5

г?? г?® I was the green Amp with yellow paddles, black kit and composite helmet (all with a tall bloke inside). https://www.civiltech.hu/node/6979
:lol so then...no one knows what the rivers are like in the Alps? Naturally there are exceptions to both rules, but a good location to warm into NZ and playboat a lot is Taupo or Rotorua on N. Island...you have Fulljames and The Kaituna cartwheel hole nearby, as well as other fairly reliable rivers. Later on you can hit the south and tour the harder stuff. https://www.civiltech.hu/node/5693
ж?‡ г?? Davef https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7197
FAO Mark ... River Ure update ??? Anyone seen Mr Wallis's Orchy thread on uk.r.p.b?? https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7214
Robert How do you do the smiley faces?? https://www.metakids.nl/node/11829
If I get around to a new second edition I will be asking for all the input and ideas that the real paddlers out there have, Until then I am really chuffed out here in cold BC that so many of the Welsh rivers are being enjoyed perhaps due in part at least to my small efforts . г?“ г?¦ https://www.civiltech.hu/node/6968
Chas, Steve...you need to log in and go to your 'CONTROL CENTRE' (makes you think of Tracey Island or Defcon 1). https://www.metakids.nl/node/11349


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Apparantly I'm off paddling somewhere on Sunday...not sure where though with all this rain. Apparantly the river is going to be which one is still within its banks and not a suicide mission. Oh goody.... Summerhall HouseLittlehamBidefordDevon EX39 5HG
2016/07/06 5:33 | niquuu

# 16rqr1

複 д?? www.billmattos.com/webcam.html https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7404
drop me a mail if you fancy a look I think we have a pretty safe practice procedure, and certainly do all the things recommended in the "Liability" guidelines - Risk Assessment, Briefing those on the trip as to what to expect, and so on - it's just trying to do it in a way which pleases the people looking after the paper chain ! https://www.metakids.nl/node/12140
г?­ ;-) https://www.metakids.nl/node/11901
Figured Wales would be pumping https://www.civiltech.hu/node/6298
Edited by: Mick Wood at: 2/11/02 10:03:23 pm https://www.metakids.nl/node/11067
6)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp The water though lacking was clearly visible (not hidden under a raft of plastic). г?« https://www.metakids.nl/node/11407
Craig. https://www.civiltech.hu/node/6254


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Yeah- I'd looked at the Southbourne webcam- but it didn't bear much resemblance to the conditions we had yesterday! Mick... with one eye on the water in North Wales!
2016/07/06 6:30 | King

# tr3vyv

г?? Will. Never been yet but you guys seem to like 'em up there ;) https://www.metakids.nl/node/11050
We ended up on the Lower Tavy (Tavistock down) - having decided against Dartmeet. Checked out the upper Tavy but running well up in the trees. The Lower Tavy is a good alternative when everything is running that high - a few trees down, watch for one river left a few KM above the weir (on a right hand bend). No real hazards just a rollercoaster wave train. Anyway, at the control centre, go to 'edit settings' and type in a full web link for the picture you want to show, and tick the box, eg. this is mine at present... https://www.civiltech.hu/node/6148
г?° for this year??!! wow https://www.civiltech.hu/node/7141
Now only one kayak for sale! I generally keep my eyes closed rolling, with the occaisional just open enough to find up if I get really confused. https://www.civiltech.hu/node/5835
mick, is that blast on ure photo of the bottom hole at mile end mill?? - if got to get to that hole to get to know hole playing - its quite friendly and kicks u out once u capsise (?) https://www.metakids.nl/node/11375
Below this, its one long steep rapid, with no stopping until the take out bridge, and it wont take you long to get there. Tom г?? е ? https://www.metakids.nl/node/11319
hf https://www.metakids.nl/node/11958


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Regards john@bleak.org.uk
2016/07/06 10:40 | cristinamoruju

# yovbxo

ж?° (Cable Bay, Anglesey) Anyone care to comment on the rumour I heard that the Police were stopping people getting on the Keswick Greta? http://adarshaautomation.com/node/1394
It'll be good to give it another bash....I've been waitin' a long time. http://adarshaautomation.com/node/1758
г?? Rory d'ya reckon we could make it down and back in a day? Isn't it about 4 hours drive? each way? I'd be up for it if you are but it'd probably be just you and me to split the fuel?...and I'll have to re-arrange a meeting on Wednesday, which shouldn't be a problem?.... Andy http://adarshaautomation.com/node/1612
Brief guide to follow Mark!! In the meantime Nick Doll covers all the sections up there in the paddlers guide to the North East. By the way...he's looking for keen, fairly able paddlers to paddle with up there. He's sick of these solo missions! In particular, anybody free on Friday afternoons would be a Godsend. If that's you, post a name/ contact here and I'll pass it on to him (someone else is using his laptop at present). http://adarshaautomation.com/node/1805
I felt exactly the same, I've never visited an MP before and wasn't really sure what to say, I went along the lines of 'we want equal rights of access to walkers and other outdoor users and we also have less impact on the environment'. I went to get him to pass on my concerns and wishes to Margaret Becket, Secretary of State for the Environment?, highlight this as something you want him to do - an action point from the meeting! The reef knot and fishermans are OK, but the joining of ropes with a fig. 8 or overhand and with long tails is new to me, http://adarshaautomation.com/node/2215
im shure thers better though If you want an idea of how hard it is to flatwheel, take the boat to a swimming pool and with both hands on the side, throw the bow down...and then try and figure out how to get that much support from a blade (I can't). ;-) г?? http://adarshaautomation.com/node/1959
Rhys http://adarshaautomation.com/node/1259


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Thanks and speak to you soon
2016/07/07 3:00 | Dragos

# gddiv3

г?« д?? Michael 46 Ina Zone 242 Ex Nookie, as new http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2322
Pool hours should be counted within a siutable range of experience for coach assessment. I would not be happy with a L2 candidate who had all pool time, but equally, I would be unhappy if they had none at all. The general guide is to have a range of sessions: pool, introduction, come & try it, formal skills (start test training) and trips. In practice, I don't recall it ever being an issue. Everyone I've assessed has had loads more hours than required anyway. I think the only exception is where centres & companies (PGL, Acorn etc) are trying to push people through the coaching scheme quickly. Even then, training at the start of a summer season and assessment at the end usually results in sufficient experience. http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2310
г?? The normal rules apply here - if in doubt get out!!! You can easily walk away from the weir onto the caravan site and live to play another day or easily portage the weir. PS Anybody know why my picture's so small? http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2335
The entrance to the gorge went well, though the long rapid was humongous. I dropped low on the lead in so I didn't have enough speed or distance to avoid the second hole. After rolling I dropped into another hole and after rolling, again, I was at the bottom. The group had 3 rolls, 1 swim and 1 clean run (by an ex-Prem slalomist mind) between the four of us; maybe I'll inspect first next time! :-) http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2236
Mick No real reason really to be honest, went down for a bit of a chill, I wasn`t the injured party btw. Wanted to see what was going on and have a look at the river. Gonna go when it is about a foot higher (about 6 on the gague by my reckoning). http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2229
Robert I quite like this board and it's certainly fast enough with the uni connection, but I feel the discussions are lacking some of the depth that was achieved on uk.r.p.b ;-) г?? http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2236
the two of us had a briliant run down. http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2247


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Their web site uses US gallons, see www.pyranha.com/s_series.htm#page2 for example. I've no idea what they might have done in the past. See you for breakfast at RDCC Mark- Sunday am
2016/07/10 3:34 | Loanida

# sap13z

г?? е№ё Yeah been there done that, kicking myself for not doing it all before system changed. http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3491
Graham So thanks to Andrew (from Bangor) for the rescue back into shore! Cheers mate...first rescue in about 2 years! :o http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3356
ж?‡ е?? Davef http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2402
I don't wear contacts or glasses but I always keep my eyes closed underwater. I thought everyone did this but maybe I'm just a freek. How anyone can open their eyes underwater is a mystery to me; it stings like hell, and the force of the water can't be good for your eyes. If you wear glasses, however, you can buy a hydrophobic (water-hating) lense liquid that should stop droplets of water affecting your vision. I know Oakley do the liquid but I don't know if they will sell it separately to you. I hope I have been of some assistance. By the way...he's looking for keen, fairly able paddlers to paddle with up there. He's sick of these solo missions! In particular, anybody free on Friday afternoons would be a Godsend. If that's you, post a name/ contact here and I'll pass it on to him (someone else is using his laptop at present). http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3452
(Still upside down!). Tried to roll, but as I was still surfing upside down, I just carved about on the face until the whole bloody thing dumped on me....can you guess what came next?.....The fire in my lungs where the air used to be insisted I got out and took a breath! http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3027
Hi Chas- Iwas getting that too - but then sussed it out- г?? http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2768
wilko.webzone.ru http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3121


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on the Home page of this message board- there's a link -"My Control Centre" ( top Left-) How was the rest of your holiday?
2016/07/10 4:31 | michael2289

# 38tmvp

г?? If you want an idea of how hard it is to flatwheel, take the boat to a swimming pool and with both hands on the side, throw the bow down...and then try and figure out how to get that much support from a blade (I can't). ;-) http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2508
Rob http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2671
г?? г?? Steve B. Mick http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2573
Where's the biggest boating community http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3798
I know at least one person who just accepts that he can't see anything more than a few tens of yards away. I think he prefers to have perfect vision close up because that's where the immediate threat comes from! Did you get my message? http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2346
Rob Got lift on Sunday n went n rid the Upper Irfon, goin good. One car didnt make it, got stuck in floods in Hereford wouldya believe. г?? http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2516
Of the boats you've listed, the Inazone's definitely the best bet. The Glide is a very trippy design - the rails are super sharp, and it's long and slicey enough for nose pins to be a potential problem. It rewards you if you're on form, but that's probably not the type of boat you're looking for as a river runner. The Sub-7's a great boat (I've got one) but it's not really a grade IV/V river runner - it's very tight on the feet, you probably can't fit in with shoes, which are essential if you're paddling with other people, it's pretty tail-happy if you've got splits in the back etc. Great playboat, perfect for easier rivers, but not the boat I'd choose for anything which may have consequences. The Quadro's only really worth looking at if you can get a good price - it's a great river runner, but the play performance isn't too good. The hull's not very loose, the rails aren't really there and there's a very twitchy feeling when you're side surfing. On the other hand, the new Xeno might be worth a look (check out system X's website). Take my advice, buy a boat that does all the moves with or without you! My old Acrobat used to pull 360s and cartwheels all the time with me swimming alongside shouting encouragement. Then I moved up to a H2Zone and I frequently get to stay in the boat while it plays on its own. The important thing to remember about being crap at playboating is that when you pull the odd cartwheel while getting trashed look as though you meant it to happen! http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3180


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BUT - and now the impressive bit - one of my mates can FLATWHEEL A 242! I have video footage as well. He's only 13 stone but, how shall we say, built pretty heavily...
2016/07/10 8:10 | dizy

# j8dy6o

е®? г?? Steve, http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/5344
IT would seem that the flow phones are a little slow to react and some don't include the last time of update. Which meant I chose biking and missed out on what sounded like an awesome play session on the Tyne Gorge. To be fair though there must have been a big release lunchtime from Kielder because when the paddlers first checked it out on the drive up the level was low. http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/5388
г?­ We dodged trees down for the first few hundred yards, boofed a sticky hole and broke out above a big horizon line. I almost went off blind, but as I neared the drop the full extent of the gnarl below became clear...bloody hell, thank goodness there was a last micro-eddy on the brink! The river disappeared into a sheer sided gorge with a big drop into a big towback, followed by plenty more drops in increasingly narrow surroundings, losing 30 feet in all. At least one drop closed out the river with big towback, so the gorge was a portage at this level... http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/2996
Viewing the narrow gorge just below the put in bridge would be sensible. If theres a clear run out of the gorge then theres enough. If the exit of the gorge is boulder choked, it'll probably be too much of a scrape. yours faithfuly http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/4667
If you have a picture that you wish to use that isn't on a webpage, mail it to me and I'll put it up on the guidebook server and let you know the link. http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3123
(Adrian thanks for the contact I'll ring im now...he's just up the road from me and I didn't even know!) д?? г?« http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/4769
See ya, Steve B. http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3899


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:o
2016/07/10 9:52 | mjuygg

# 7dmeut

複 Will. Mark http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/3898
SSSsshhhhh!!!! http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/5012
е?? г?? yeah there were a lot more people around on Sunday but I reckon they were more noticable because people weren't getting on 'cause everything was high? They then spent their time driving around looking for something to paddle http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/5791
Can you take your own kit to sell off? It was raining this morning, so we figured we'd go to the Erme as that rises quickly. But it was looooow. There were about 300 of us, so we broke up into little groups to achieve maximum faff. My group went first, and we scraped the whole blasted river to the end at Ivybridge. We waited around for the others, and then...the river started rising very fast, until it was higher than I've ever paddled it. Not sure whether we were lucky or unlucky for missing this...we walked up to the gorge to see the others, and there was an impressive amount of carnage, lots of swimmers and stray boats...he he he he. Most of us had a go at the falls in town, which were pretty lively (I showed how it wasn't done, on video too) and then regrouped for an upper Dart trip. Frank R, Chris W and myself were on for it (quote from Frank, "there's nobody else left"). http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/4629
Hi Mark! http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/4688
For the group I paddle with, North Wales!!! OK, I've got one. Photo to follow. г?? е№ё http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/4855
I do, on the other hand, think that the continued inclusion of a simple journeying requirement in 3 and 4 star is right. Both awards are intended to encompass a broad base of skills, and undertaking trips of a few km is an important and worthwhile part of building up those skills. I wouldn't want to award 3/4 star to someone who had only ever paddled at Hurley or HPP. I think the syllabus could be better worded, it's obvious if you apply a little common sense that 3 star requires three half-day trips and 4 star requires experience of full day trips. http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/4410


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Hi Guys, Mike
2016/07/10 11:35 | Anonymous

# r16l39

г?? How many people still have an AQ11 (still in regular use) and a set of kobers in the garage? I can't be the only one........can I? http://puspacatering.com/node/35133
I love the long grade 3/4 rapid, it has a surf wave and a good cartwheel/ playhole thrown in for good measure. Is there still a whole tree sticking out of the last hole? It's a few years since I've run it. Mick http://puspacatering.com/node/35279
г?? Where/ what exactly did you have in mind? Rob http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/7107
Jerry It's done Chas...how on earth did you know I'd be asleep mid-evening? http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/6988
has anyone been in touch with him yet? Wow, it is a little damp! http://www.ukbms.org/MYDATA/node/7168
im never, ever gonna give paddlin up - we did a ferry glide a few foot above the ledge at the bottom of triple falls and the buzz was fantastic!!!- that was on the saterday when I was paddlin well though. г?? http://adsteel.net/node/5787
Anyway, at the control centre, go to 'edit settings' and type in a full web link for the picture you want to show, and tick the box, eg. this is mine at present... http://puspacatering.com/node/34931


https://duke.forums.rivals.com/threads/%E2%98%83-gethack-%E2%98%84-10-07-2016-hay-day-cheats-apk-hack-coins%E2%99%9D-ios-android.2136099/
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Shame you couldn't make it...inevitably, on the day concerned the Upper Dart had a medium/ high level (as opposed to medium flood two days before!) which would have been exactly what you were looking for, in terms of preparing for 5 star. Icarus & Fiona Edmonds
2016/07/11 3:48 | cioco_boco

# vhyt4e

д?? ж?° (Mondays 4 - 6pm & Thursdays 10am-1pm) Anyone want to part-exchange paddling kit for a chess set? ;-) г?« г?? I've been several times in late June/early July and the river has loads of water in it. I would say the main runs were ideal when I went. Knowles in his guide book totally over blows the doom and gloom however (as per usual) and put the level as way to high. Mike, which upper gauge are u referring to? mick, Thanks, hi jerry ithink jj has allready started thinking along the same lines as yourself can never find him though he was meant to turn up at rhayadr last w/e ж?° г?? Second time lucky? Anybody else want me to host a picture?


What was this Dave, a case of irreconcilable differences? Happy Paddling
2016/07/12 14:16 | kerryzeng

# 11cyv4

г?? Steaming up IS a problem and yes, you can get anti-mist stuff in a little spray from most opticians. http://otelo.or.at/de/forum/july-pokemon-cheats-real-free-pokecoins-pokeballs-android
questions, questions, questions.....this could all be sorted out in 5 mins on the water! :lol Mike http://otelo.or.at/de/forum/13072016-pokemon-cheat-apk-free-pokeballs
г?? 15? whats it normally on 12 I think (?) http://otelo.or.at/de/forum/generator-12072016-pokemon-hack-ios
Assessor status? https://www.bluebanyan.com.au/%E2%98%A7%E2%9D%BD%E2%9D%BD%E2%9D%BD-pokemon-hack-jaibreak-generate-pokeballs-android
yeah there were a lot more people around on Sunday but I reckon they were more noticable because people weren't getting on 'cause everything was high? They then spent their time driving around looking for something to paddle http://otelo.or.at/de/forum/no-survey-hack-google-play-pokemon
Anyone seen Mr Wallis's Orchy thread on uk.r.p.b?? г?? г?? https://www.bluebanyan.com.au/%E2%9C%AFha%E2%99%94ckgenerator-13072016-pokemon-cheats-real-free-pokeballs-%E2%9C%8D-android
I checked some rainfall statistics before our last Scotland-at-Easter session. April and May are the driest months of the year in Fort William. However they are still wetter than the wettest months in the SE. Time to look more closely at his book....! https://www.bluebanyan.com.au/%E2%99%87%E2%9D%BC%E2%9D%BC%E2%9D%BC%E2%99%88-pokemon-hack-activation-code-hack-pokeballs-androi%E2%97%A6dios


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Non paddling topic any advice/info would be greatly appreciated
2016/07/14 0:36 | b0Mb

# sl5tc8

г?? Mick Though I carry my phone "on principle" ( the one time you need it, it's in the car ... plus the value post-paddle for fixing shuttles etc), I've only ever used it on the Thames (to try to ring the "Charing X Bridge Control). Whilst I'd carry it in a BA pocket at sea, otherwise, it's in the back of the boat in a dry bag. I can't see much point in keeping it out on the river; most WW rivers anyway seem to have effectively zero reception at water level! https://www.metakids.nl/node/12940
Yeah Steve, something of the sort had occurred to us as a one-way option (we've also looked at going via Shetland and the Faeroes!)...National Geographic has a picture of a brand spanking new bridge between Denmark and Sweden (or Norway?), I'll check it out. http://www.people2outsource.com/blog/%E2%98%B4%C2%AF%EF%BF%BD%EF%BF%BD%EF%BF%BD%E2%9D%B8%E2%9D%B8%C2%AF-pokemon-go-glitch-and-glitches-free-pokecoins-pokeballs-ios-andro%E2%98%88id
г?° Thanks Marc :eek http://otelo.or.at/de/forum/pokemon-go-mod-apk-generate-pokecoins-pokeballs-2016
Having said all of this, it drops as fast as it rises...may be sedate again by morning. Sounds like water to me? fingers crossed it'll stay! http://otelo.or.at/de/forum/pokemon-go-cheats-hack-pokecoins-2016
Ecuador fatality https://www.metakids.nl/node/13808
Mick ж?‡ г?? http://www.people2outsource.com/blog/%E2%97%9C%C2%AF%E2%9D%BC%E2%9D%BC%E2%9D%BC%C2%AF-pokemon-go-hack-tool-d%E2%97%AAownload-pokeballs
or is this just the landowners excuse to keep boaters away Those Kober paddles were awesome!! http://otelo.or.at/de/forum/pokemon-go-online-hack


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