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ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題

開発者は言語に左右されてはダメだと考えますが...
ネタ元: http://www.atmarkit.co.jp/bbs/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=39368&forum=3&9
@IT会議室に 「年金問題の一因は システムはコボルで出来ている為だ」に対する問いが揚がってます。
言語に対する偏見を具間見た気がして不快感があるのですが、改めて回りを見ると言語に縛られているプログラマって居ますね。
理想的な業務系システムではシステム設計時は言語とは違う次元で設計し、機能に適した言語で実装するのが好いと考えてます。
しかし実態は特定の言語使いが集まることが多いので、開発当初に開発言語を特定することが多いです。
開発者も「自分はVBプログラマだから他の言語は知らない。」「自分はCOBOLERだからOPEN系は知らない。」と自ら壁を作って言語の世界に閉じこもる人が少なからずいます。
VBerはCのソースを見ようともしない。COBLERはVBのソースを見ようともしない....C/C#系の人は他の言語も抵抗なく読まれるので、民度の差なのかな..(この見方自身が私の偏見かもしれません)
業務システムでは言語特有の機能が不可欠な部分は殆どなく、UIを伴わない処理では COBOL/VB/C#.. いずれでも殆どは実装可能でしょう。
手続型言語、関数型言語(リスト型言語) の相互理解は難しいかもしれませんが、 COBL/C#/VB/JAVA は先祖が手続型言語なのでその範囲内で理解可能だと考えます。
XAML/LINQ/動的言語など新顔が次々登場する現実をみると特定言語に拘束されて云々ということ自体がナンセンスな気になります。

COBOL文化も小さくなりつつあるものの現在も現役で事業として成り立っているので、色眼鏡で見て欲しくないです。
ローカル変数がなく広域変数のみとか、 Perform句は関数では無いとか指摘されますが、旧BASICのGOSUB なども同様であったのだから、優劣ではないと思ってます。
相互の文化を理解しようすれば円満に合流できるのにね。

素人の評論がミスリードしているとありましたが、どの分野でも評論家はミスリードしていると思います。(これも私の偏見)
「コンピュータの結果だから間違いはない」...信じますか?。IT業界人は信じないですよね。
Excelで作表した結果を見ながら、算盤で検算していた経理マンが居ましたが、それが正しい姿なのかも知れませんね。

投稿日時 : 2007年7月3日 11:33

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# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/03 14:30 裏口

システム規模を考えると開発当時に最も安定していたプラットホームはメインフレーム。従って開発言語COBOLはごく自然な選択肢です。

評論家・ジャーナリスト等IT業界に疎い業種は比較的無責任な解釈をするのは仕方ない事かと思いますが、自称社内SEがあのスレ立てをした目的が不明。
# 個人的には単なる暇つぶしかと思ってますが。

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/03 14:58 NAO

言語歴&PC歴を書いてみると。
ええ…年代モロバレです(w

最初に触ったパソコン:MZ-80B(古)

BASIC→中学生位迄(結構自分でプログラム組んでたなぁ…)

その後中断(だって当時パソコンなんて高嶺の華だったし)

FORTRAN→大学時代(組むのが早かったから結構みんなの標的にされていた)

C→会社に入ってから初めて触った
その後C++、Visual BASIC、Visual C++、アセンブラ

ここでおしまい

でも組み込みでアセンブラとCをやってたから
それ以外の言語も違和感なく読めますね。

。Net系のInteliSenseの頭の良さに非常に感動してます。

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/03 15:26 片桐

つられてきた(笑)

だって、つい2年前までCOBOLしてたんですもん。
古代語なんて表現はゆるされんでしょ<おい

私もけっこう年齢いってる?かも?<こらこら

初めてのPCはPC98VM21
初めてのプログラムはN88-BASIC
あと、COBOLにはじまって……いろいろ(笑)

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/03 16:12 NAO

脱線して。
組み込みの開発って結構専用のコンパイラが有るんですよね。

で…設計してCで書いてコンパイラ通してバイナリにしたら…
→メモリ足らなくて入らず
→ひたすら共通化できるところを共通化
→可読性低下(ぉ
→あ、タイミングずれた…orz
→可読性低下してるので何処をどうしようか悩む
→読みやすくしてみる
→振り出しに戻る

で…可読性とメモリとタイミングのトレードオフで
プログラムは決まります(^_^;)

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/03 16:17 Ognac

私の言語歴を書くと年ばばれそうなんですが、釣られて書いてみます
Fortran77
8080Assembler (ハンドアセンブル含む)
Z80Assembler
S/370 COBOL
S/370 APL言語 (関数型記号言語)
S/34 RPG   (カラム固定レポート言語)
S/36 RGGⅡ
S/23 BASIC : IBM製のBASIC
AS400 RPG400
Tiny Basic
QBasic
MS/C
Watcom C
IBM C : For OS/2
C++
JAVA1.x
VB
C#
他にもあったが忘却のかなた....... 何一つ満足にマスターしてないのが欠点 ..コラ
複数の言語で且つ大型機からPCまでの経験の積み重ねが今の私を支えていると思ってます。
 今後の予定?
 IronPython/Ruby....... XAML ,Linq.....言語として分類するのは無理な時代になった気がするなぁ



>可読性とメモリとタイミングのトレードオフで
マシンサイクルで速度追求されると尚更ですね

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/03 19:39 とりこびと

えっと・・・さりげなく最初の言語を書いても怒られないスレはここですか?w

最初の言語・・・Visual Basic .NET 2003

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/03 20:04 RUN

包み隠さずに打ち明けると、
初めてさわった言語は
ファミリーベーシッ(ry

歳ばれないよね?きっとw

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/04 1:52 Ognac

>最初の言語・・・Visual Basic .NET 2003
時代を感じますね

>ファミリーベーシッ
ありましたねぇーと言いたいですが未経験ですぅ
ファミコンで動くベーシック?  MSX-BASICではないよね

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/04 2:05 Ognac

事の発端は 朝生のトークでの発言だったんだ

http://blogsearch.google.co.jp/blogsearch?hl=ja&q=%E5%B9%B4%E9%87%91%E3%80%80COBOL&btnG=%E3%83%96%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B0%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&lr=lang_ja

マスコミがミスリードする極端な例ですね。
無知で勤まる評論家...もとい...無知だから勤まる評論家

# 最初に組んだプログラム 2007/07/05 0:01 開発言語:恣意++

最初に組んだプログラム

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/05 8:47 Mr.T

Mr.Tです、こんにちは。
>ファミリーベーシッ(ry

関係ないけど、最初に触ったのが
ぴゅー太だったような...
#あの青い機体が...

# re: ピントハズレな言い分 年金問題 2007/07/05 19:56 RUN

>ファミリーベーシッ…
ファミコンで組むベーシックプログラムです。

ベーシックシステムROMと付属品としてファミコン用キーボードとサンプルプログラム&環境リファレンスブック(だったと思う。現物はもう無いのでうろ覚えです)がついてました。

ただ、記憶装置は別売の専用レコーダーでそのレコーダーが品薄と言う酷い環境だったので、BASICを勉強するには向いてなかった・・・(レコーダ持ってなかったんだよ~)

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# ロレックス エクスプローラー1 プレミア 2023/03/10 3:47 zpsvkwfrso@ocn.ne.jp

ティファニーのエンゲージメントリング購入しました。
何事もなく昨日受取ました。
注文から発送まで激早です!
梱包もキレイでした。
ただ、買った商品が旧型?だったので、ちょっと残念です。
ロレックス エクスプローラー1 プレミア https://www.b2kopi.com/product/detail.aspx-id=5680.htm

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